Author Topic: Orthodoxy, Catholicism, the reaction to Communism/Facism, and other related subj  (Read 18756 times)

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Offline ozgeorge

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Is there really any need for this carry on lubeltri? Why the dramatics? Did orthodoxlurker say anything about your pope Benedict XVI? Why so defensive?
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Offline lubeltri

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Is there really any need for this carry on lubeltri? Why the dramatics? Did orthodoxlurker say anything about your pope Benedict XVI? Why so defensive?

Are you actually reading his intimations and accusations? Do you really believe the Vatican is behind all of the conspiracies he is mentioning? The breakup of Yugoslavia? Secret fascist societies? The suppression of certain books across the Western world? Rather than offended (or defensive, as you call it), I am actually somewhat amused. I picked that photo because I couldn't find a photo of St. Peter's dressed up as Barad-dûr. Just having a bit of fun with it. People love to think of the Vatican as this sinister all-powerful organization that controls the leaders of the world with puppet strings. I call it Da Vinci Code syndrome---endemic to some EO and many others.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 10:37:29 AM by lubeltri »

Offline ozgeorge

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Perhaps you might want to consider your actions on an Orthodox Christian forum. The Serbs who suffered and died under Pavlevic at the hands of the Ustashi are Glorified as Martyrs by our Church. Orthodoxlurker has told you that members of his family are among them. You have shown absolutely no sensitivity to this. You might as well just dance on their graves.
Orthodoxlurker has shown a noble spirit by asking forgiveness if he has offended any Roman Catholics. You have shown a very stunted spirit with your behaviour.
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Offline lubeltri

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Perhaps you might want to consider your actions on an Orthodox Christian forum. The Serbs who suffered and died under Pavlevic at the hands of the Ustashi are Glorified as Martyrs by our Church. Orthodoxlurker has told you that members of his family are among them. You have shown absolutely no sensitivity to this. You might as well just dance on their graves.
Orthodoxlurker has shown a noble spirit by asking forgiveness if he has offended any Roman Catholics. You have shown a very stunted spirit with your behaviour.

Right. Objecting to slanders and conspiracy theories are equivalent to "dancing on their graves." Members of my family never made it back from France in 1944, but if I started hurling baseless accusations at the French, I would not be justified in doing so and would deserve censure for it. :-\
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 11:30:04 AM by lubeltri »

Offline ozgeorge

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See ya.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Quote
Orthodoxlurker has told you that members of his family are among them. You have shown absolutely no sensitivity to this. You might as well just dance on their graves.

Venting frustration over the typical anti-catholic conspiracy theories is hardly dancing on someone's grave.  Nobody here seems to care when Russian nationalism is spouted off in the name of Orthodoxy -  which would be dancing on the graves of my relatives.  But I guess their carcasses don't count for much here since they were murdered by Orthodox people.   

Offline Νεκτάριος

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I don't expect you to learn Serbian, or Italian, to read them. But, do you have a guess why these most important are not translated? I do.

Actually, I can read Serbian/Croatian with not too much difficulty.   I can also read any sources you have in Russian or German.

I'm pressed for time this morning, so later today I'll see if I can find any those authors you mentioned here.  As for the rest, I'll get back to it over the next few days.   
 

Offline orthodoxlurker

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Gentlemen,

I'd appreaciate very much if this thread wouldn't evolve into petty accusations. I intend to post some quotations, with the references, to see if I'll get the answer.

Also, though it might sound embaracing to some Catholics, who might not be aware of it, it's primarily aimed at Orthodox, who equally might not be aware of it, so we remain silent when faced with:

Quote
Or more to the point, why did Orthodox hierarchy serve for the KGB, Securitate et al and Pope John Paul II help destroy communism?

though we have at least as much question to ask RCC as they have to ask us. And I do want to point to double standards involved in such an attitude.

Moreover, I don't want to offend any Catholics by posting this. I have cousins Catholics, if that matters.

Finally, since ozgeorge pointed that persons of my family are among those who were gloryfied Martyrs, technicaly, only father-in-law of my aunt falls into that cathegory. From where I'm coming, that's family, but I don't want anyone to misunderstand. But I don't expect any credit for that, or any "anger" and "feelings" at my side to be tolerated for that, since it would be completely wrong. Don't be symphatetic to me. Don't be nice to me.

I just want to express my points and face the opposing arguments. So anyont can make a judgement for himself over the facts.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Actually, I can read Serbian/Croatian with not too much difficulty.   I can also read any sources you have in Russian or German.

I'm pressed for time this morning, so later today I'll see if I can find any those authors you mentioned here.  As for the rest, I'll get back to it over the next few days.   
 

My respect for your multilinguality.

If you really want to read it, I'm willing to leave weeks, if not months for your reply. I suppose you have other business to beside discussion boards. Take your time in any case.
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Offline lubeltri

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Also, though it might sound embaracing to some Catholics, who might not be aware of it, it's primarily aimed at Orthodox, who equally might not be aware of it, so we remain silent when faced with:

though we have at least as much question to ask RCC as they have to ask us.

Excuse me, but neither I nor any other Catholics here asked that question. I have never come onto this board with cracks at Orthodox complicity with totalitarian regimes. I don't conflate churches with the sins of their members and the complex historical questions and circumstances surrounding that issue are beyond my knowledge and capability to judge with any authority.

Your response amounted to, "Well, look at what the Catholics did!" Your support was Wikipedia and fundamentalist websites.

Then after an apology, you follow up with various other bizarre conspiracy theories about the last two popes and about the Vatican. Added to this were other cracks, among which was that you couldn't expect anything more from Catholics than dishonesty. I think it is reasonable to call foul at such blatant anti-Catholicism. But then, I'm a grave-dancer, so I guess I am not supposed to complain. :)

« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 01:30:53 PM by lubeltri »

Offline orthodoxlurker

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...
The title of this thread is "Orthodoxy, Catholicism, the reaction to Communism/Facism, and other related"

Two question I initially quoted was yours and Nectarios':

Quote
Quote from: lubeltri on September 17, 2007, 06:12:55 pm
Blessed Stepinac "served the Nazi regime"? This is libellous without evidence to support it.
Quote from: Νεκτάριος
Modern scholarship is reexamining Stepinac's collaboration with Pavelic.  A good example of this is Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts pages 5-28.  Stepinac is also credited with saving thousands of Jewish lives during WWII - there is much more gray area with him than Serbs using Titoist propaganda will admit.
...
For all the Serb uproar about the Nazis - Prince Paul of Yugoslavia signed a pact with Nazis - another typical case of the Nazis were evil because they attacked me.
in my initial post here.

Then after an apology, you follow up with various other bizarre conspiracy theories about the last two popes and about the Vatican. Added to this were other cracks, among which was that you couldn't expect anything more from Catholics than dishonesty. I think it is reasonable to call foul at such blatant anti-Catholicism. But then, I'm a grave-dancer, so I guess I am not supposed to complain.

First, I said I expected nothing less, nothing more, than to discredit the source, instead of proving the facts wrong.

Second, what i said was:

Quote
Anyway, I've heard that both Pope Woytila (sp?) and Pope Ratzinger were not KGB agents because they've been Hitler-Jugend members, so KGB wouldn't recruit them, or that they actually were agents of opposing intelligence services (above mentioned Cardinal Sodano comes to mind) but I don't take such assertations seriously. However, there are claims that agreement between Reagan and Woytila http://www.blogicus.com/archives/ronald_reagan_and_pope_john_pauls_alliance.php
included dismantling Yugoslavia and was explanation for many false accusations against Orthodox Serbs there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism#Cannibalism_as_cultural_libel

If you read what I actually wrote, you'll see that I claimed none of what you are accusing me.
Concerning Pope Benedict, it's the fact he's been recruited in some Nazi Youth organization. They wouldn't ask if you agree these days, it was all about the age. For the record, I don't think that fact to be an unovercomable impediment for him being your Pope. From the Orthodox perspective, only those who murdered by their own hands aren't allowed to become priests.
Concerning Woytila, I quoted and posted a link. I said it's a roumor.

Finally, concerning the conspiracy theories about dismantling Yugoslavia and VAtican involvement in it, I don't want this thread to denigerate into political discussion. However, I'll point to these facts:

a) Vatican was the second state that recognized independence of present day Croatia (after Island) somewhere in November 1991, during the clashes. That's the fact, you are entitled to coniser it marvelously right, but I consider it wrong.
b) It was Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Sodano, that announced:
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/9901/ZE990121.html
Quote
VATICAN CALLS FOR DISARMING OF AGGRESSORS IN KOSOVO
Profound Concern Over Gravity of Situation
VATICAN CITY, JAN 21 (ZENIT).- In an interview with the Italian daily 'Corriere della Sera,' Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Secretary of State for the Holy See, said the massacre of civilians in Kosovo has made that region the subject of extreme concern among Vatican diplomats. The Cardinal went on to say that "those who have the ability" -- in particular the leaders of the international community --, should "separate the adversaries" in Kosovo, where ethnic Albanians, seeking greater autonomy for self-government, have been routed by Serbian forces representing the government of Yugoslavia, which controls Kosovo. The Vatican Secretary of State said that international leaders should "disarm the aggressor" in the Kosovo conflict.
Mind, that announcement came the same date, but chronologically before the forensic team issued the statement that was reported worldwide as "massacre of civilians", which was casus belli for war against Yugoslavia in 1999.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/22/kosovo.forensic/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/258918.stm
though there used to be reports that were questioning the mainstream account of events:
http://www.bernal.co.uk/Research/Racak.html
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kosovo-solution.html
http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/199903/90320-002-traepod.htm
http://38.201.154.103/articles/?a=1999/4/13/114554
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c334.htm
Finally, the tema of Finnish forensic pathologist was summoned to witness at the trial against late Milosevic, but Mrs. RAnta, as the leader of the team was spared from witness and cross-examination, only the team members witnessed. They denied they ever mentioned "massacre of civilians", since the body count showed 42 dead, 42 of whom in military uniforms while one civilian, present at the time of attack in fortification, while none of them shot by close fire (that would amount to shooting after they surrendered), or killed by knife. Only shots from couple dozens to couple hundreds metters. Pure and sound military action against rebells, with one possible "collateral damage".
See the transcripts of the trial of those three days of their witnesseth:
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050408IT.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050412IT.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050413IT.htm
It's lenghty. But very few news agencies reported about it, and only those you'd discredit.
It shows Cardinal Sodano, Secrateary of Vatican State, was plain wrong. He was the first Secretary of any State that spoke certainly about "the massacre of civilians" and "disarmament of aggressor", that lead to 78-days war of NATO against Yugoslavia.
Again, I'll refreain myself from denigerating this thread into political debate. I posted the above to respond to your "bizzare conspiracy" accusation.
I think you should either calm down or leave the debate.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 02:53:26 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Offline ma2000

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Venting frustration over the typical anti-catholic conspiracy theories is hardly dancing on someone's grave.  Nobody here seems to care when Russian nationalism is spouted off in the name of Orthodoxy -  which would be dancing on the graves of my relatives.  But I guess their carcasses don't count for much here since they were murdered by Orthodox people.   

May I remind you that you were the one to bring the "frustration" and unrelated to the topic accusations? And you were the one who started this?
Asemănându-te obiceiurilor râvnitorului Ilie şi urmând Botezătorului pe drepte cărări, Părinte Antonie, te-ai făcut locuitor pustiului şi ai întărit lumea cu rugăciunile tale. Pentru aceasta, roagă-te lui Hristos Dumnezeu, să mântuiască sufletele noastre.

Offline Peter J

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Dear orthodoxlurker,

I think some of the point you've made here are good. Thing is, you also said:

I won't waste time by commenting usual denial tactis aimed at slandering the source of facts while not disputing the facts itself. I don't expect anything more and anything less from a catholic.

So right off the bat, I have to figure that you are really only interested in talking at Catholics, not with. If you see what I mean.

God bless,
Peter.

P.S. I also find it somewhat suspicious the way you jumped to the conclusion that Symeon was Catholic.
- Peter Jericho

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^ Perhaps you would like to make use of our PM system and take this off forum? Please.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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^ Perhaps you would like to make use of our PM system and take this off forum? Please.
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 02:33:21 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Let me offer some translation from the book:
Quote
Marco Aurelio Rivelli
L'Arcivescovo del genocidio
Kaos Edizioni, Milano 1999
About the author:
Marco Aurelio Rivelli (Genoa, 1935), obtained PhD a political sciences with the work “Racial and religious policy of Independent State Croatia (1941-1945). He is author of the book “Il genosidio occulte Etat independent de Croatie 1941-1945” (I Age d'Home, Tosana, 1998)
as published in Serbian by Jasen, second edition, 1999 EDIT: Title in Serbian: Nadbiskup genocida
UDK 341.485 (497.13)
(the above UDK number is CIP catalogization number, used localy instead of ISBN, probably because it's cheaper to obtain it)
Quote
Pages 233 and 234

At the beginning of 1946, Yugoslav authorities submit to monsignor Patricio Herley, being the official representative of Vatican, comprehensive documentation on collaboration of monsignor Stepinac and significant part of Croatian clergy with Pavelic' dictatorship. This diplomatic initiative is aiming at causing Vatican to transfer archbishop from Zagreb and to assign him to a high post in some other country; the move that would allow to avoid the prosecution and save diplomatic relations between Belgrade and Vatican (28)...

Footnote 28) This fact is confirmed by Secretary of Communist Party of Italy, Palomiro Togliatti, on November 7, 1946. In Party's newspapers “Unita”, Togliatti writes that Yugoslavian leader Tito informed him a time ago that there are proofs on collaboration of monsignor Stepinac with the Ustashe and Nazis, so that Yugoslavian leader informed the envoy of the Apostolic mission in Belgrade about that; through him, Tito called upon Holy See to withdraw Stepinac and relieve hime from prosecution that is otherwise inevitable. /End of quote from the book

(page 56 of the book)

The Journal of Diocese of Sarajevo of RCC “Katolicki tjednik” (A Catolic weekly) August 31, 1941: “Until today God has spoken through Papal encyclicals, teachings, catechisms, Christian press, missions, through the saints. But they, (Serb Orthodox) have not listened. They remained without feelings. Now God has decided to use other methods. He will inspire our acts, our general mission! It will be conducted not by the faithful, but real combatants of Hitler. Teachings will finally be heard with the help of artillery, rifles, tanks and bombardiers.”

(page 55 of the book)

Viktor Gutic, a Catholic priest in Croatian Army, May 26, 1941, Banja Luka to a military unit: “...all non-desirable elements will be exterminated soon and no trace will stay after them”. The same Gutic, May 27, 1941, Bosanski brod: “I have made drastic decisions that Serbs ought to be destroyed, economically at first and then in every other sense. Do not have any mercy towards them: destroy them wherever you have a chance...Gods' blessing will follow you and my approval. (According to C. Falconi, “Il silenzio di Pio XII”, Milan 1965, page 560)

(page 60 of the book)

L. Rogers: I took a bag (of one Ustasha soldier) and opened it. At first I thought I was seeing sea salamanders, but then I realized these were human eyes”. (Footnote 9 L. Rogers, Guerrila surgeon, London 1957, page 46. Rogers was official English doctor being a member of mission assigned at Yugoslav partizans (communists).
About the creepy love towards eyes of their victims the Italian writer Kurzio Malaparte bears the following witness in describing a meeting with the leader of Independent State of Croatia Pavelic: “While we were talking I was looking at a basket placed at the table left from Pavelic. It was open and it seemed to me it was full of sea fruits, I'd say oysters, but without shells, similar to ...

page 128

Italian presence, for instance, terminates religious persecution and forcible conversions, causing not only protests of Ustashe, but also of local Catholic authorities. In one letter addressed to Stepinac, dated November 7, 1941, Bishop of Mostar Alojz Misic writes: “Italians came back and took over civic and military power. Schismatic churches resurrected, while Orthodox priests, hidden until now, are appearing again. Italians show affection towards Serbs, while not towards Catholics. (footnote 73- according to V. Gorresio, La guuerra dei poveri, in “Tempo presente”, May 1958, pages 362-364)

Stepinac' letter to cavaglieri Fafaelle Kazertianno, immediately upon receipt of the letter of Alojz Misic: “That such a state does have religious, and not only political and national character, is obvious. Besides, it must be noted that Italian people are very Catholic and does have luck of having Vicar of Christ, Head of Catholic Church in its capital, making thus each scandal of the noble Italian people that violates rights of local population at the occupied Croatian territories even worse. So it happened that in the Croatian territories annexed by Italy there is obvious decline of religious life, as well as certain tendency of conversion from Catholicism into Schism. Guilt and responsibility in front of God and history shall be upon Catholic Italy if this utmost Catholic part of Croatia ceases to be such in future. The religious character of the problem about I'm speaking imposes the religious duty to say to you clearly and bluntly the above mentioned, whereas it is me who is responsible for the spiritual wealth of Croatia” (footnote 74 - F. Cavalli, Il processo arcivescovo di Zagabria, Rome 1947, page 174)

(page 124)
The other letter of a Catholic from Belgrade, former Minister in several governments of Yugoslavia, Prvoslav Grizogono, dated February 8, 1942 (only exceprts translated here):

“...Rivers Sava, Drava and Danube had taken away thousands and thousands of Serbian dead. It was written on some of them: “Direction Belgrade, to King Peter”. In one vessel brought to Belgrade by Sava, there used to be a bunch of skulls of children, with the skull of a women (probably a mother of some of those children) with the title: “The meat for the John's marketplace in Belgrade”. The case of Mileva Bozanic from Stabanjac was particularly awful. Her fetus son was taken out of her. There is also the case of baked heads in Bosnia, full of blood, case of the Serbs being forced to drink the blood of their killed beloved ones being still hot. Countless women, girls and little girls – mothers in front of daughters and daughters in front of mothers – were raped and forwarded to Ustasha camps to be exploited. The rapes were performed even on altars of Orthodox churches. Near the city Petrinja a guy has been forced to rape his own mother. Onslaught of Serbs in the Orthodox church in Glina is unprecedented in history....”
(fotnoote 64= the letter of Prvoslav Grizogono is placed at the British Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Foreign Office R. 5182/246/92, Sir Ronald Campbell, Public Record Office FO 371/37630)

In the next post I'll try to examine some available proofs pro et contra Stepinac.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 04:14:40 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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If you understand Italian, the book is very well written.  I had multiple family members (including my Prozio) and family friends serve in the Italian military during WWII in the Balkans, and some of the stories... truly some of the most vile things I have ever heard.  I am sure the book would even shocked my relatives, about what happened in other areas, but they could have added a few of their own stories. 
As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
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Offline Fr. George

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orthodoxlurker,

I appreciate the above quotation.  Reading it makes me sick, but we must all be exposed to the truth, no?  Thank you.
I don't typically presume to speak for Mor
You can presume to speak for Mor.  

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Offline orthodoxlurker

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If you understand Italian, the book is very well written.  I had multiple family members (including my Prozio) and family friends serve in the Italian military during WWII in the Balkans, and some of the stories... truly some of the most vile things I have ever heard.  I am sure the book would even shocked my relatives, about what happened in other areas, but they could have added a few of their own stories. 
Italians are by default appalled by what they saw there. As occupiers of parts of the territory, they by default protected civilians wherever they could.

Serbs owe a lot of gratitude to general Roata.

Their testimonies, since they are neither Communists nor Orthodox, but are Catholics, are precious.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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orthodoxlurker,

I appreciate the above quotation.  Reading it makes me sick, but we must all be exposed to the truth, no?  Thank you.
No must. Only those who want should read it. It does make one sick.

But, can you imagine the sickness that I felt when I read: "Modern scholars are examining..." as the only argument to disregard all of it?
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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One a short note:

Letter of Prvoslav Grizogono, quoted above in mu post, has been denied as forgery by his kids somewhere about 1993, as reported by some pro-Stepinac sites. I'll try to provide the link and quotation.

However, it appeared that they actually don't deny the letter itself, but the accusations directed towards Stepinac in it. But the point is, Grizogono has not seen the events he was writing about to Stepinac, since he was in German-occupied Belgrade, and no one disputing the accuracy of the letter has actually denied any of the events described.

I'll expand it during the next days.
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Offline Peter J

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Dear orthodoxlurker,

This will be my last post on oc-net, possibly for good, so I want to leave you with a couple of closing thoughts, even if they aren't at all profound: first to wish you all the best for the continuation of this thread; second to express my agreement with what Cleveland has said,

orthodoxlurker,

I appreciate the above quotation.  Reading it makes me sick, but we must all be exposed to the truth, no?  Thank you.

God be with you.

Sincerely,
Peter (a.k.a. PJ)
- Peter Jericho

Offline orthodoxlurker

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Dear orthodoxlurker,

This will be my last post on oc-net, possibly for good, so I want to leave you with a couple of closing thoughts, even if they aren't at all profound: first to wish you all the best for the continuation of this thread; second to express my agreement with what Cleveland has said,

God be with you.

Sincerely,
Peter (a.k.a. PJ)

Dear all,

I regret I ever brought this topic to your attention. I disturbed all of you, as if you didn't have your own troubles. I feel like an elephant in mirror shop, breaking everything around me.

I'm sorry.

But these horrific stories are not only part of the history, they are very much alive. And the wounds are hurt every time we hear something that wouldn't amount to what's known as denial (I don't know what would that be), but mere mockery of it, because "modern scholars are examining it".
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 05:00:19 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Quote
1. Vladimir Dedijer

I've skimmed some of his stuff this week.  Some of it I want to take the time to read more fully.  And most of his best work is readily available in English. 

My complaint is that I can't help but reading some of it as Titoist propaganda.  The suppression and demonization of any overt expression of Croatian nationalism was essential to Tito solidifying his own hold on Yugoslavia.  At the point where I am, there is little more than some Catholic clergy did bad things, therefore Stepinac approved of it. 

There is also a distinction isn't being made in most of what I've scanned of your recommendations: for obvious reasons the Vatican backed an independent Croatia and in some sense favored a fascists victory over a communist victory (like in Spain, for instance).  I don't see this as meaning that the Vatican automatically supported the genocidal policies of the Ustasa.  I think a much stronger case could be made if a more subtle approach had been taken - Catholicism was used to create and promote a militant Croatian nationalism and failed to provide a strong enough ethical voice in Croatian society in order to stop the atrocities.

Quote
dr. Viktor Novak - title: "Magnum Crimen"

Can't find the book in any library around here.  But I'll keep an eye out.  From your description, I am most interested in finding this. 

Quote
Marco Aurelio Rivelli

I wasn't able to find this either.  But the conspiracy theory of Vatican suppression doesn't really make sense to me considering that is was published in Italian (where the Vatican exerts much more influence) than in an Anglophone nation (where the Vatican exerts relatively little influence). 

Quote
dr. Milan Bulajic

The works of his that I was able to find were unrelated to WWII. 

Quote
And the wounds are hurt every time we hear something that wouldn't amount to what's known as denial (I don't know what would that be), but mere mockery of it, because "modern scholars are examining it".

When I said that about Stepinac, it was in no way connect to holocaust denial.  Rather, the reality is that in all of the former communist countries there is still major work that needs to be done on WWII because of how the regimes used information from the war for propagandistic purposes.  The example I'd give for that is Poland.  The communist line was that nearly every single Pole did not cooperate in any way with the Nazis - yet modern scholarship is showing all too many cases where some Poles were more than eager to help in the murdering of Jews.  Massacres that had been blamed on the Nazis are now known to have been carried out by the Red Army.  For that reason many aren't willing to blindly accept the Communist version of events in Yugoslavia's history during WWII.  Nobody is questioning the murder of thousands of Serbs, Roma and Jews by Ustasa, rather the question is whether those tried and condemned by Tito were mere scapegoats. 




Offline orthodoxlurker

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After two and a half years, I am finally able to point that the above rant of Nektarios & Lubeltri is not only ridiculous, but is against the forum policy of crediting sources as clarified by the joint efforts of PeterTheAleut and Fr. Chris.

Would you be able to supply the documents which Dolskaya references?  This is Forum policy although I can appreciate that it is not always possible.
Irish Hermit, I suspect you may be misrepresenting Forum policy with this statement, since I'm only aware that Pravoslav09 must credit the documents that he himself has referenced, which he has done quite consistently on this thread.  I'm not aware of any policy that requires him to supply the documents that the authors of his sources have referenced.  I'm currently reviewing Forum rules on this, but in the meantime, if you are intentionally misrepresenting Forum policy, you need to stop now.  If you want to discuss this with me, please do so via private message.
After clarifying this point of policy further with Fr. Chris, the rule of source documentation is merely that Pravoslav09 (as well as Irish Hermit) must credit his sources, which he has done.  This policy does not extend to the sources his sources have used, so he bears no requirement to supply any documents that the authors of his sources have referenced.  To ask him to do this therefore goes beyond the scope of Forum policy on this matter.

Thank you, Fr. Chris and PeterTheAleut, for your efforts.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 02:17:14 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Ouch.

One of my credited sources disappeared from it's original place in the web! See:

b) It was Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Sodano, that announced:
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/9901/ZE990121.html
Quote
VATICAN CALLS FOR DISARMING OF AGGRESSORS IN KOSOVO
Profound Concern Over Gravity of Situation
VATICAN CITY, JAN 21 (ZENIT).- In an interview with the Italian daily 'Corriere della Sera,' Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Secretary of State for the Holy See, said the massacre of civilians in Kosovo has made that region the subject of extreme concern among Vatican diplomats. The Cardinal went on to say that "those who have the ability" -- in particular the leaders of the international community --, should "separate the adversaries" in Kosovo, where ethnic Albanians, seeking greater autonomy for self-government, have been routed by Serbian forces representing the government of Yugoslavia, which controls Kosovo. The Vatican Secretary of State said that international leaders should "disarm the aggressor" in the Kosovo conflict.
Mind, that announcement came the same date, but chronologically before the forensic team issued the statement that was reported worldwide as "massacre of civilians", which was casus belli for war against Yugoslavia in 1999.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/22/kosovo.forensic/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/258918.stm
though there used to be reports that were questioning the mainstream account of events:
http://www.bernal.co.uk/Research/Racak.html
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kosovo-solution.html
http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/199903/90320-002-traepod.htm
http://38.201.154.103/articles/?a=1999/4/13/114554
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c334.htm
...

If you click at the link above, you'll see the news disappeared from zenit.org.

Luckily, I credited the source while it was still there.
Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Offline orthodoxlurker

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Is there really any need for this carry on lubeltri? Why the dramatics? Did orthodoxlurker say anything about your pope Benedict XVI? Why so defensive?

Are you actually reading his intimations and accusations? Do you really believe the Vatican is behind all of the conspiracies he is mentioning? The breakup of Yugoslavia? Secret fascist societies? The suppression of certain books across the Western world? Rather than offended (or defensive, as you call it), I am actually somewhat amused. I picked that photo because I couldn't find a photo of St. Peter's dressed up as Barad-dûr. Just having a bit of fun with it. People love to think of the Vatican as this sinister all-powerful organization that controls the leaders of the world with puppet strings. I call it Da Vinci Code syndrome---endemic to some EO and many others.

Well, the fact that Magnum Crimen hasn't been published anywhere "in the West" (copyright lubelbri, 2007) may be a conspiracy theory (although I never meant to attribute it solely to Vatican), but what are the reasons for eradication of the news published by zenit.org on January 21, 1999 from the archives of the very same zenit.org? While all other news of theirs are cautiously archived?

Ouch.

One of my credited sources disappeared from it's original place in the web! See:

b) It was Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Sodano, that announced:
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/9901/ZE990121.html
Quote
VATICAN CALLS FOR DISARMING OF AGGRESSORS IN KOSOVO
Profound Concern Over Gravity of Situation
VATICAN CITY, JAN 21 (ZENIT).- In an interview with the Italian daily 'Corriere della Sera,' Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Secretary of State for the Holy See, said the massacre of civilians in Kosovo has made that region the subject of extreme concern among Vatican diplomats. The Cardinal went on to say that "those who have the ability" -- in particular the leaders of the international community --, should "separate the adversaries" in Kosovo, where ethnic Albanians, seeking greater autonomy for self-government, have been routed by Serbian forces representing the government of Yugoslavia, which controls Kosovo. The Vatican Secretary of State said that international leaders should "disarm the aggressor" in the Kosovo conflict.
Mind, that announcement came the same date, but chronologically before the forensic team issued the statement that was reported worldwide as "massacre of civilians", which was casus belli for war against Yugoslavia in 1999.
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/22/kosovo.forensic/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/258918.stm
though there used to be reports that were questioning the mainstream account of events:
http://www.bernal.co.uk/Research/Racak.html
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kosovo-solution.html
http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/199903/90320-002-traepod.htm
http://38.201.154.103/articles/?a=1999/4/13/114554
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c334.htm
...

If you click at the link above, you'll see the news disappeared from zenit.org.

Luckily, I credited the source while it was still there.

Strange, even the internet archives didn't cache it.

Would I be labeled as a conspiracy theorist for this, too?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 04:23:04 PM by orthodoxlurker »
Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator