Who died on Calvary?

[Demetrios G.]

The Church also proclaims that the human soul is immortal, not possessing life by its very nature, but solely by the will of God.  God will not allow that which bears His image, the image of the One Who Is, to return to non-being even temporarily.

I am aware of how Christs soul and body became immortal. How is everybody included in that?
 If you say he defeated death by death. I will say your right. He did, but how are all included? If you say he sanctified his flesh because he took on that flesh. I will say your right. How are all included in that?
Can you be a little more specific?

[PeterTheAleut]

I am aware of how Christs soul and body became immortal. How is everybody included in that?
 If you say he defeated death by death. I will say your right. He did, but how are all included? If you say he sanctified his flesh because he took on that flesh. I will say your right. How are all included in that?
Can you be a little more specific?

As long as you keep trying to make the Orthodox doctrine of redemption fit the framework of your convoluted logic, you will never understand.

[Demetrios G.]

As long as you keep trying to make the Orthodox doctrine of redemption fit the framework of your convoluted logic, you will never understand.

If you said it's a mystery that I can't explain. I can except that. But to attack my intelligents isn't very become of a Christian. I'll take that as "I don't know"

[PeterTheAleut]

If you said it's a mystery that I can't explain. I can except that. But to attack my intelligents isn't very become of a Christian. I'll take that as "I don't know"

Please forgive me for implicitly attacking your intelligence, for that's not the message I meant to convey.  Your posts consistently show the work of a very clear, brilliant mind, and for this I must truly commend you.  However, my assertion is that you actually think too much about these theological issues and that you try to fit everything into your particular logical framework, thus keeping yourself from understanding what others have to say in rebuttal.  (I know.  I struggle with the same temptations in my efforts to submit my extremely rational mind to the wisdom of others.)

[Didymus]

ignatius & all, Christ (being God) tasted death in the flesh. Christ has alway been everywhere and even when His body lay in the tomb He still reigned as God on the throne in heaven. In short (hopefully I have the wording right here), Christ's soul separated from His body but His Divinity never separated from either and so Christ was always and still is One even as He is God. Christ died physically in the flesh. Christ did not die morally nor spiritually nor eternally nor could He ever. This is why God became man so that He could die. Unless Christ had a body, how else could He die?

(Somebody please say if any of the above is incorrect as this is my limited understanding of The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.)

I wrote an email a few weeks back somewhat related to this so here is a section from it that may be of interest:
~~~
If you run a search on the phrase "gave up the ghost" in the AV and then look at the Greek wording used, you will find that a different wording is used in reference to the Lord.

[I haven't check the LXX as I haven't the means to do so here but in Hebrew the phrase appears in Gen 25:8, Gen 25:17, Gen 35:29 & Lam 1:19 and always means to breath out in expiration, that is, to die or perish.]
 
Acts 5:5; 12:23 use (Strong's#) G1634 which comes from G1537 & G5594. This refers to the passive gentle breath going out (or expiring) which of course has the double meaning of the ghost/spirit departing from a man.

St. Mark 15:37,39 & St. Luke 23:46 use G1606 from G1537 & G4154. This refers to actively breathing out hard or blowing out. That is to say, this act is done willfully, voluntarily and purposefully unlike the former.

St. John uses an even plainer phrase in Greek to make this even more obvious and clear. The phrase translated "gave up the ghost" in his Gospel uses G3860 G3588 G4151. (Sorry to type it like that but Eudora wouldn't recognise the Greek characters.) Now to explain this:
G3588 = the (and many other words not important to this topic)
G4151 = ghost/spirit (from G4154 meaning breathing hard or blowing, that is to say it is conscious, active and willful).
G3860 comes from G3844 (which can mean a variety of things derived from nearness or proximity) and G1325 (which basically means give but can be used just as widely as we use the word 'give' in both positive and negative ways). Hence G3860 means "to give to one that is near" which can mean betray or surrender but in this case more aptly means to intrust, commit, deliver, yield up or transmit.

How perfectly this matches with Christ's words in St. Luke 23:46!

Conclusion: My point from all this is: the Greek wording explicitly tells us that unlike other men whose passive breath simply expired and so their ghosts departed, the Lord Christ actively and willfully gave up the ghost commending (or committing in trust) it into the hands of His Father; And so just as Christ said so the Gospel writers confirm!
~~~

ozgeorge, the Oriental Orthodox position is that the word "united" means "to make one" and as such, Christ has One Nature which is both Divine and Human with mingling or confussion.

[Demetrios G.]

Please forgive me for implicitly attacking your intelligence, for that's not the message I meant to convey.  Your posts consistently show the work of a very clear, brilliant mind, and for this I must truly commend you.  However, my assertion is that you actually think too much about these theological issues and that you try to fit everything into your particular logical framework, thus keeping yourself from understanding what others have to say in rebuttal.  (I know.  I struggle with the same temptations in my efforts to submit my extremely rational mind to the wisdom of others.)

I once held your position on this matter. I no longer do. I have given referances to others that believe the same as I do. I suggest you read some of his work. http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/perieh.htm The Metropolitan John I. Zizioulas is truly the brilliant mind. I'm just a layman.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Faith Issues (Moderator: PeterTheAleut) > Topic: Who died on Calvary?