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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2007, 10:23:41 AM » |
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His nature does include his soul. What your not understanding is his persona. I'll give you an example.
Hypothetically speaking. If a human breeds with a dog. There offspring will be both dog and man, fully. They will have a dog and a human soul. But there personallity will be half dog and half man as well. Eh, no, he'd be half-man, half-dog, and have a mixed soul (assuming for the sake of argument that dogs even have souls). In Christs case his personallity is just that of God. This is the Orthodox position. Is that clear enough for you? So if Christ's personality was solely divine, all His temptations didn't mean anything, because His humanity wasn't tempted. That sounds more like God simply taking on a human appearance than God actually becoming human.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2007, 10:26:15 AM » |
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Your making me correct. I agree with this statement fully. Than God didn't die. Because God is divine. His flesh died. Demetrios, this is Nestorianism. If you say that God didn't die on the Cross, you are saying that Christ is two Persons, one human person who died on the Cross, and one Divine person who did not die on the Cross. Christ is One Person Who is God. This One Person Who is God died on the Cross in His Humanity.
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:27:41 AM by ozgeorge »
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2007, 10:30:43 AM » |
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He would be holding the Nestorius position than. Do you see what I mean? No my friend, for whilst God's human soul was separated from God's human body, God Himself was separated neither from His body nor His soul. The words of St. Gregory Palamas are quite succinct and clear on this point: The Son of God, who in His compassion became man, died insofar as His body was concerned, when His soul was separated from His body; but this body did not separate from His divinity, and thus He raised up His body once more and took it with Him to heaven in glory. I'm still waiting for you to engage with the Twelve Anathemas that i've referred you to twice now. I'm sure you'd agree with me that an authentic theology is not the mere product of theoretical speculation and rationalisation, but rather primarily the product of revelation, as it is articulated and expressed in all its forms, including the dogmatic formulations of the Church.
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:35:33 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2007, 10:35:23 AM » |
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Demetrios, this is Nestorianism. If you say that God didn't die on the Cross, you are saying that Christ is two Persons, one human person who died on the Cross, and one Divine person who did not die on the Cross. Christ is One Person Who is God. This One Person Who is God died on the Cross in His Humanity.
I didn't say that he didn't die on the cross. your saying that I say this. Where did I say this? I said that Christ Died in the flesh. But at no time did he cease to exist.
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2007, 10:37:36 AM » |
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The Son of God, who in His compassion became man, died insofar as His body was concerned, when His soul was separated from His body; but this body did not separate from His divinity, and thus He raised up His body once more and took it with Him to heaven in glory. This mean that he didn't die into non-existance than, doesn't it?
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2007, 10:41:51 AM » |
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I didn't say that he didn't die on the cross. your saying that I say this. Where did I say this? Well, I guess I inferred this when you said: Christ couldn't die. He is immortal. and He didn't die because he is being. and Than God didn't die. Because God is divine.
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2007, 10:45:10 AM » |
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No my friend, for whilst God's human soul was separated from God's human body, God Himself was separated neither from His body nor His soul. The words of St. Gregory Palamas are quite succinct and clear on this point: HUH? Are you holding the Nestorius position?
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2007, 10:47:13 AM » |
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Well, I guess I inferred this when you said: andand
Read carefully. Christ existed before he became man. If death defeted him than he is not immortal.
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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Heorhij
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2007, 10:50:23 AM » |
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Dear friends,
I am new to Orthodoxy and I am no theologian, so forgive me if I sound naive (which I will) or heretical (which I might, even though don't want to). I believe that Christ really died on the Cross, just like we die. But it does not mean that He ceased to exist - again, just like we do not cease to exist when we die. He was resurrected ("stood up," "anastasi"), came back from the dead, again, just like we will be resurrected, "stood up," "anastasi," come back from the dead. Death does not mean annihilation, it is merely a temporary condition when our temporary imperfect "mortal" body (or "person") disintegrates, but we will be "alive" again as same persons in different (or, better, changed, transigured) bodies - "heavenly," "incorrupt," un-perishable, "glorified." I understand that this is exactly what Christ showed those who believe in Him by His death and resurrection, and this is exactly what St. Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 15. So, in view of all this, I don't think it's wrong to say that Christ died on the Calvary, and there is simply no need for "dualistic" exegeses that use the terms "body and soul," or "flesh and spirit," etc. Christianity is essentially "monistic" (i.e. humans exist - not "flesh" separately or "spirit" or "soul" separately). Where am I wrong?
Also, I think that it is much more important to understand WHY did Christ die I understand that this is where "Eastern" and "Western" theologies disagree.
Pray for me, a sinner,
George
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2007, 10:53:20 AM » |
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Read carefully. Christ existed before he became man. If death defeted him than he is not immortal. Demetrios, your soul is also immortal. But you will die one day.
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2007, 10:56:11 AM » |
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Demetrios, your soul is also immortal. But you will die one day.
All will die, but some will stay there. I have to go now.
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 11:01:28 AM by Demetrios G. »
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2007, 11:48:16 AM » |
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All will die, but some will stay there. Κολοκύθια με τη ρίγανη, λέω εγώ. ADDIT: (For those who don't read Greek, this literally translates as: "'Zucchinis with oregano' I say!" It's kind of the Greek equivalent of "Milarkey!" or "Codswhollop!" or "Baulderdash!". And for those of you who are British or New Zealanders, a zucchini is a courgette.)
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 12:05:17 PM by ozgeorge »
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Heorhij
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« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2007, 01:52:02 PM » |
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Κολοκύθια με τη ρίγανη, λέω εγώ.
ADDIT: (For those who don't read Greek, this literally translates as: "'Zucchinis with oregano' I say!" It's kind of the Greek equivalent of "Milarkey!" or "Codswhollop!" or "Baulderdash!". And for those of you who are British or New Zealanders, a zucchini is a courgette.)
Wow, thanks for the translation... knowing only a few words in Greek and having read "pigane," I asociated it with terms like "stearopigia," etc. Good that I was mistaken. 
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minasoliman
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2007, 06:09:44 PM » |
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Here are my two piasters (very cheep  ) worth: When men die, no one will stay dead. This was argued before. The problem with you Demetrios is that you define death as "non-existence," especially to those who are "eternally damned" I guess. It seems therefore understandable why you would consider that all would "rise from the dead" that all those righteous are those who will rise from the dead. That's the problem. And like EA said, you rationalize things, but you don't accept things as revelation, because these are all mysteries. But if you are stuck in "rationalizations," then you lose the spirit of humility. Let me share with you a quote from St. Athanasius that disproves your idea of "non-existence" of our immortal souls: It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word and that man, having transgressed, should not die; but it was equally monstrous that beings which once had shared the nature of the Word should perish and turn back again into non-existence through corruption. Let's face it. God will not let us go into non-existence, especially if we share with God His Image and Likeness. You will have to re-rationalize your thoughts here and accept the revelations of the Holy Fathers guided by the Holy Spirit. Think of the imagery of Judgment Day. How do you think that imagery is possible if not even the wicked are risen from the dead? Then you can't really call that "Judgment" Day, since "judgment" is only an allusion, and what you is defined as "judgment day" to you is simply Resurrection of the righteous. No, my friend, death is not non-existence, and God didn't allow it then, I'm sure He won't allow it now as well. God bless.
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 06:12:28 PM by minasoliman »
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Vain existence can never exist.
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2007, 09:57:05 PM » |
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Here are my two piasters (very cheep  ) worth: When men die, no one will stay dead. This was argued before. The problem with you Demetrios is that you define death as "non-existence," especially to those who are "eternally damned" I guess. It seems therefore understandable why you would consider that all would "rise from the dead" that all those righteous are those who will rise from the dead. That's the problem. And like EA said, you rationalize things, but you don't accept things as revelation, because these are all mysteries. But if you are stuck in "rationalizations," then you lose the spirit of humility. Let me share with you a quote from St. Athanasius that disproves your idea of "non-existence" of our immortal souls: Let's face it. God will not let us go into non-existence, especially if we share with God His Image and Likeness. You will have to re-rationalize your thoughts here and accept the revelations of the Holy Fathers guided by the Holy Spirit. Think of the imagery of Judgment Day. How do you think that imagery is possible if not even the wicked are risen from the dead? Then you can't really call that "Judgment" Day, since "judgment" is only an allusion, and what you is defined as "judgment day" to you is simply Resurrection of the righteous. No, my friend, death is not non-existence, and God didn't allow it then, I'm sure He won't allow it now as well. God bless. You may read but you don't understand. There is no spirit without the body. Period For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit), and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again. The presence and love of the Word had called them into being; inevitably, therefore when they lost the knowledge of God, they lost existence with it; for it is God alone Who exists, evil is non-being, the negation and antithesis of good. By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption."And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but ye die as men and fall as one of the princes."
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2007, 10:13:37 PM » |
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For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit), and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again. The presence and love of the Word had called them into being; inevitably, therefore when they lost the knowledge of God, they lost existence with it; for it is God alone Who exists, evil is non-being, the negation and antithesis of good. By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption."And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but ye die as men and fall as one of the princes." And St. Athanasios continues: "We saw in the last chapter that, because death and corruption were gaining ever firmer hold on them, the human race was in process of destruction. Man, who was created in God's image and in his possession of reason reflected the very Word Himself, was disappearing, and the work of God was being undone. The law of death, which followed from the Transgression, prevailed upon us, and from it there was no escape. The thing that was happening was in truth both monstrous and unfitting. It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word and that man, having transgressed, should not die ; but it was equally monstrous that beings which once had shared the nature of the Word should perish and turn back again into non-existence through corruption. It was unworthy of the goodness of God that creatures made by Him should be brought to nothing through the deceit wrought upon man by the devil; and it was supremely unfitting that the work of God in mankind should disappear, either through their own negligence or through the deceit of evil spirits. As, then, the creatures whom He had created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning? Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all than, having been created, to be neglected and perish ; and, besides that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore, that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself."
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2007, 10:52:41 PM » |
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Demetrios,
Methinks you waste way too much of your energy reasoning through these academic theological issues and would most probably do well to not think so hard about these things. How does all this borderline-heretical rationalization benefit your salvation, may I ask?
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:54:53 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2007, 09:39:08 AM » |
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I hope I am not playing the devil's advocate here, but the Greek original of the Nicene Creed does not, indeed, contain the word "died" - it just says, "suffered and was buried" ("pathonta kei tafenta"). Same thing its Latin translation, "passus et sepultus." http://www.thenazareneway.com/nicene_niceno_constantinopolitan_creed.htm
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2007, 01:48:01 PM » |
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However, in the word "buried" we see the assumption that Jesus must have died in accordance with the witness of the Gospel. People normally don't bury someone who isn't yet dead.
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"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2007, 02:12:09 PM » |
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Peter, I agree... Do you guys know, when was the word "died" added, and by whom? (In my church here in MS, where all services are in English, we say, "suffered, died, and was buried," although in my Ukrainian prayer book the creed reads, "i strazhdav, i buv pokhovanyj," i.e., "and suffered, and was buried," exatly like in the Greek original). Thanks in advance for the info!
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minasoliman
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« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2007, 10:42:58 PM » |
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Ozgeorge pretty much repeated what I quoted for you with its context. Now, it's up to you if you think I read, but I have no understanding. Pretty much, there were times when I was "Julianist" in my Christology, but face it, my mind and rationalization can lead me to be wrong, and I have to look back to the Holy fathers for guidance. Otherwise, you will always deceive yourself.
God bless.
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Vain existence can never exist.
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« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2007, 10:55:55 PM » |
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Demetrios,
Methinks you waste way too much of your energy reasoning through these academic theological issues and would most probably do well to not think so hard about these things. How does all this borderline-heretical rationalization benefit your salvation, may I ask?
Do you know what the major theological differents is between the Orthodox and the Catholics? It's this exact issue. The Orthodox believe in a ontialogical salvation. Meaning salvation from death. The Catholics believe in salvation from a tormenting hell. So yea, it is a big deal when Orthodox start to believe in the Catholic belief. Wouldn't you thing?
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2007, 11:38:09 PM » |
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Do you know what the major theological differents is between the Orthodox and the Catholics? It's this exact issue. The Orthodox believe in a ontialogical salvation. Meaning salvation from death. The Catholics believe in salvation from a tormenting hell. So yea, it is a big deal when Orthodox start to believe in the Catholic belief. Wouldn't you thing?
Demetrios, You're making it far to easy for me. There's no challenge. It's like how Goths and Emo's make themselves such easy targets for other teenagers to pick on them. "If you want to be a non-conformist you need to dress like us and listen to the same music we do." they make is so easy that rebutting their ideas has become as hackneyed as they are.........And you know who else has had it too easy? Computational Linguists like my Sister-In-Law: "Oh look at me! My field is so ill-defined and I can subscribe to any dozens of contradictory models and still be taken seriously, get a gob-smacking salary and drive a SAAB convertable." (j/k  I actually love her dearly!)
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 11:57:12 PM by ozgeorge »
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2007, 01:37:57 AM » |
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Do you know what the major theological differents is between the Orthodox and the Catholics? It's this exact issue. The Orthodox believe in a ontialogical salvation. Meaning salvation from death. The Catholics believe in salvation from a tormenting hell. So yea, it is a big deal when Orthodox start to believe in the Catholic belief. Wouldn't you thing?
I'm not talking about an abstract concept of salvation, whether that be Catholic or Orthodox or Smagastyrian. I'm talking about YOUR salvation.
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« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2007, 09:57:58 PM » |
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Demetrios, You're making it far to easy for me. There's no challenge. It's like how Goths and Emo's make themselves such easy targets for other teenagers to pick on them. "If you want to be a non-conformist you need to dress like us and listen to the same music we do." they make is so easy that rebutting their ideas has become as hackneyed as they are.........And you know who else has had it too easy? Computational Linguists like my Sister-In-Law: "Oh look at me! My field is so ill-defined and I can subscribe to any dozens of contradictory models and still be taken seriously, get a gob-smacking salary and drive a SAAB convertable." (j/k  I actually love her dearly!) I don't know why my belief has come into question on this thread. I did give the original poster an Orthodox reply. Now that I'm a non-conformist, heretic and in nead for salvation. Please pray for me.
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« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 09:58:56 PM by Demetrios G. »
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« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2007, 09:49:34 AM » |
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Dear Demetrios,
While I absolutely agree that rationalizations are not exactly the "tool" of human salvation, I do not think it is entirely wrong to ponder on such fundamental realities as the death and resurrection of our Lord.
As I wrote before, I believe - and I hope I understand it correctly that this is what our Church believes - that our Lord really died on Calvary (not "His flesh died," but "He died").
What seems to be extremely important to me is to grasp, WHY, "what for." As I understand, the entire Western theology (both Roman Catholic and Protestant) believes, beginning with treatises of St. Anselm (early 11th century), that Christ brought His life to His Father as a "ransom" or "pay" for our sins.
Until very recently, I thought I believed this, too. Yet, now I am beginning to realize that this is NOT what the Eastern theology holds and this is NOT what the Holy Orthodoxy believes.
Since I am very new to Orthodoxy, I hereby would not dare to word my beginner's understanding of the belief of our Church about why did our Savior die on the cross, but I would like others, those who are more mature in faith and knowledgeable, write about this.
Thank you all,
George
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falafel333
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« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2007, 10:04:19 AM » |
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As long as there is a single reference point, a single subject and a single consciousness I really can't see how there could be a claim for Nestorianism.
I think the potential duality that Nestorianism introduces into Christ is in reality the essence of the heresy.
And while in reality this was not completely resolved in Nestorius' condemnation, albeit ambiguously and hence the controversy of Chalcedon, later developments saw the resolution in the single hypostasis formulation.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2007, 10:59:26 AM » |
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I don't know why my belief has come into question on this thread. I did give the original poster an Orthodox reply. Now that I'm a non-conformist, heretic and in nead for salvation. Please pray for me.
Demetrios, It is the following belief of yours which is in question: All will die, but some will stay there. For nearly 2000 years we have believed that Our Lord Jesus Christ said: "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29) Now you are trying to present a different teaching to the one we have received from the Apostles. You are telling us that Our Lord Jesus Christ was wrong because only those who have done good will rise from the dead, and those who have done evil will remain dead and not rise. Somehow, I think Christ our God knows a little bit more than you about how things will unfold on the Day of Judgement. How can you contradict a basic Christian teaching given by none other than Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, call it "Orthodox doctrine" and expect to be taken seriously? George
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 11:13:21 AM by ozgeorge »
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2007, 11:29:13 PM » |
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Dear Demetrios,
While I absolutely agree that rationalizations are not exactly the "tool" of human salvation, I do not think it is entirely wrong to ponder on such fundamental realities as the death and resurrection of our Lord.
As I wrote before, I believe - and I hope I understand it correctly that this is what our Church believes - that our Lord really died on Calvary (not "His flesh died," but "He died").
What seems to be extremely important to me is to grasp, WHY, "what for." As I understand, the entire Western theology (both Roman Catholic and Protestant) believes, beginning with treatises of St. Anselm (early 11th century), that Christ brought His life to His Father as a "ransom" or "pay" for our sins.
Until very recently, I thought I believed this, too. Yet, now I am beginning to realize that this is NOT what the Eastern theology holds and this is NOT what the Holy Orthodoxy believes.
Since I am very new to Orthodoxy, I hereby would not dare to word my beginner's understanding of the belief of our Church about why did our Savior die on the cross, but I would like others, those who are more mature in faith and knowledgeable, write about this.
Thank you all,
George
You bring up a very good point. The why? The only logical answer is to believe as I do.
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2007, 11:52:59 PM » |
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You bring up a very good point. The why? The only logical answer is to believe as I do.
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong, but are you, with the above statement, setting yourself up to be THE authoritative teacher of what is Orthodox and what is not?  (Sadly, this is actually quite consistent with the very dogmatic manner by which you have presented yourself thus far on this forum.)
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« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2007, 08:40:52 AM » |
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Please tell me I'm reading this wrong, but are you, with the above statement, setting yourself up to be THE authoritative teacher of what is Orthodox and what is not?  (Sadly, this is actually quite consistent with the very dogmatic manner by which you have presented yourself thus far on this forum.) Since your not willing to step up. Us, sheep herders have to pitch in. 
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 08:42:39 AM by Demetrios G. »
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras 490 BC – 420 BC Greek Philosopher
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minasoliman
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« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2007, 12:48:29 PM » |
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Since your not willing to step up. Us, sheep herders have to pitch in.  Demetrios, Don't get me wrong, but I do feel the saying "You are your own worst enemy" pertains very much to your situation. Until you humble yourself and re-think or re-rationalize (perhaps that might help) and try to find out why a major part of the Church disagrees with you, you will deceive yourself. You may call yourself a "sheep-herder," but many of the greatest and most spiritual Holy fathers called themselves "unworthy" and "sinful." God bless.
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Vain existence can never exist.
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scamandrius
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« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2007, 01:10:26 PM » |
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Us, sheep herders have to pitch in.  So, you're a bishop, then?
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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2007, 01:12:17 PM » |
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Demetrios,
Don't get me wrong, but I do feel the saying "You are your own worst enemy" pertains very much to your situation. Until you humble yourself and re-think or re-rationalize (perhaps that might help) and try to find out why a major part of the Church disagrees with you, you will deceive yourself. You may call yourself a "sheep-herder," but many of the greatest and most spiritual Holy fathers called themselves "unworthy" and "sinful."
God bless.
I ment that literally! I am a decendent from a long line of Greek sheep and goat herders. Don't laugh, you can learn a thing or two from making feta cheese. 
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2007, 01:43:09 PM » |
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I've read every post and I'm thankful that it's been a popular topic but could someone or everyone help me clarify the Orthodox position... God, the immutable source of life, 'can' die. Is this correct?
Thanks.
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 01:43:49 PM by ignatius »
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Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
nam prudentia carnis mors prudentia autem Spiritus vita et pax (Rom 8:6)
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« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2007, 01:54:23 PM » |
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I've read every post and I'm thankful that it's been a popular topic but could someone or everyone help me clarify the Orthodox position... God, the immutable source of life, 'can' die. Is this correct?
Thanks.
Dear Ignatius, Again, I am no theologian by any stretch, but my naive answer would be "yes." God cannot cease to exist (and we, too, cannot), but God, incarnate as the Son of Man, can "suffer death," voluntarily experience suffering in its ultimate depth, up to the point of real, "100%" death. Probably that's why some English translations of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed give "pathonta" (literally "suffered") as "suffered death." I am, too, very much looking forward to reading more learned answers from our members. George
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« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2007, 02:14:27 PM » |
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Dear Ignatius,
Again, I am no theologian by any stretch, but my naive answer would be "yes." God cannot cease to exist (and we, too, cannot), but God, incarnate as the Son of Man, can "suffer death," voluntarily experience suffering in its ultimate depth, up to the point of real, "100%" death. Probably that's why some English translations of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed give "pathonta" (literally "suffered") as "suffered death."
I am, too, very much looking forward to reading more learned answers from our members.
George
Thanks George! So then we would have to concede that our God is 'not' immutable and that He suffered 'change'? Doesn't this challenge the whole 'Perfection' of God as Changeless? Thanks again everyone who offers help!
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Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
nam prudentia carnis mors prudentia autem Spiritus vita et pax (Rom 8:6)
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« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2007, 02:46:47 PM » |
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Thanks George!
So then we would have to concede that our God is 'not' immutable and that He suffered 'change'? Doesn't this challenge the whole 'Perfection' of God as Changeless?
Thanks again everyone who offers help!
No, he did not suffer change in his divinity, but we also believe in the principle of communicatio idiomatum (exchange of properties) such that we say "God laughed" while also affirming that Jesus raised the dead by using his body. Anastasios
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« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2007, 03:30:27 PM » |
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No, he did not suffer change in his divinity, but we also believe in the principle of communicatio idiomatum (exchange of properties) such that we say "God laughed" while also affirming that Jesus raised the dead by using his body.
Anastasios
So, in his divinity, are you saying that he did not 'die'? Can we define 'Death'? Thanks.
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Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
nam prudentia carnis mors prudentia autem Spiritus vita et pax (Rom 8:6)
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« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2007, 05:09:27 PM » |
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So, in his divinity, are you saying that he did not 'die'? Can we define 'Death'?
Thanks.
He died in the flesh. The reason death couldn't hold him is because he died sinless. He bypassed the law that we were under. Witch states, sin leads to death. Non-existance couldn't contain him. So it offered him back alive. His divinity never died. It could have if he sinned. But we know the outcome of that.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2007, 06:12:04 PM » |
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So, in his divinity, are you saying that he did not 'die'? Can we define 'Death'?
Thanks.
In death, the bodily functions cease and the soul is seperated from the body. When Christ became Incarnate, He not only took on a human Body, He also took on a Human Soul, therefore, the process of His death in the flesh is the same as ours- seperation of Soul and Body and the end of bodily functions. When He died, Christ's Body was in the tomb, and His Soul was in Hades like all the dead. However, unlike the rest of the dead, Christ is God, so He was not only in the Tomb and in Hades, He was also sitting on the Throne in Heaven and remained "everywhere present and filling all things".
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« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2007, 07:21:57 PM » |
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In death, the bodily functions cease and the soul is seperated from the body. When Christ became Incarnate, He not only took on a human Body, He also took on a Human Soul, therefore, the process of His death in the flesh is the same as ours- seperation of Soul and Body and the end of bodily functions. When He died, Christ's Body was in the tomb, and His Soul was in Hades like all the dead. However, unlike the rest of the dead, Christ is God, so He was not only in the Tomb and in Hades, He was also sitting on the Throne in Heaven and remained "everywhere present and filling all things".
AMEN!
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"The one who is free can go wherever he wishes to, in the light of the manifested grace. The captured one will be led by the captor, and will at the same time be convinced that he is his own guide" -- Met. Nahum of Strumica
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!
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« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2007, 07:22:59 PM » |
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In death, the bodily functions cease and the soul is seperated from the body. When Christ became Incarnate, He not only took on a human Body, He also took on a Human Soul, therefore, the process of His death in the flesh is the same as ours- seperation of Soul and Body and the end of bodily functions. When He died, Christ's Body was in the tomb, and His Soul was in Hades like all the dead. However, unlike the rest of the dead, Christ is God, so He was not only in the Tomb and in Hades, He was also sitting on the Throne in Heaven and remained "everywhere present and filling all things".
As we sing at the office of the Hours on Pascha and all during Bright Week... "In the grave bodily, in hell with the soul as God, in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit were You Who fill all things, O Christ the Infinite."
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Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2007, 03:19:20 AM » |
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In death, the bodily functions cease and the soul is seperated from the body.
The Church also proclaims that the human soul is immortal, not possessing life by its very nature, but solely by the will of God. God will not allow that which bears His image, the image of the One Who Is, to return to non-being even temporarily.
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« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2007, 08:48:38 AM » |
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The Church also proclaims that the human soul is immortal, not possessing life by its very nature, but solely by the will of God. God will not allow that which bears His image, the image of the One Who Is, to return to non-being even temporarily.
Amen!
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Love never fails.
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