ignatius
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« on: May 23, 2007, 01:02:28 PM » |
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Who or What died on Calvary?
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Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
nam prudentia carnis mors prudentia autem Spiritus vita et pax (Rom 8:6)
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2007, 05:04:44 PM » |
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Christians died and through baptism were resurrected with Christ.
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2007, 06:35:48 PM » |
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Who or What died on Calvary? The Second Person of the Holy Trinity suffered and died in the Flesh. |
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falafel333
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2007, 08:44:30 PM » |
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Christians died and through baptism were resurrected with Christ.
I don't think this would be an accurate statement. Christ died on Calvary and Christians participate in His death and resurrection through baptism. |
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 10:11:53 PM » |
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I don't think this would be an accurate statement. Christ died on Calvary and Christians participate in His death and resurrection through baptism.
Christ couldn't die. He is immortal. His nature died. |
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ignatius
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 10:34:28 PM » |
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The Second Person of the Holy Trinity suffered and died in the Flesh.
Please help me with this. How can 'The Second Person of the Holy Trinity' suffer and die? The Godhead is the very source of life how can is be overtaken by death even for a minute? Thanks. |
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Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
nam prudentia carnis mors prudentia autem Spiritus vita et pax (Rom 8:6)
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minasoliman
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 10:56:32 PM » |
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Well, the Word took flesh and became man. Therefore, if He had to die and rise from the dead, the Second Person of the Trinity had to do it through His own humanity, not through His eternally existent Divinity.
God bless.
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Vain existence can never exist.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 11:34:54 PM » |
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Christ couldn't die. He is immortal. His nature died.
Do you believe it proper to call Mary Mother of God (Theotokos)? |
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"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2007, 05:26:36 AM » |
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Please help me with this. How can 'The Second Person of the Holy Trinity' suffer and die? The Godhead is the very source of life how can is be overtaken by death even for a minute?
Thanks.
God is the Holy Trinity, Three Persons sharing One Divine Nature (or "Divine Essence"). The Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh from the Virgin Mary and became Man, so he took on a created human body and a created human soul. Therefore, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity has Two Natures- One Divine Nature and One Human Nature. These are the two fundamental truths of Christian doctrine, Namely: 1) God is One God in Three Persons Who Are indivisible and without confusion. 2) Christ is One Person in Two Natures Which are united without confusion. When Christ walked among us, He was both Man and God (and still Is). As God, He was able to heal the sick, raise the dead, forgive sins, walk on water etc. While Christ lived on Earth, He did not stop being God, so He was still Omnipresent, Omniscient etc in His Divine Nature, i.e. He was not absent from Heaven. As Man, He required food, water, sleep, shelter etc. When Christ slept in the boat, His Divine Nature was not alseep, only His Human Nature was. When He was crucified, His bodily functions ceased and His Soul was seperated from His Body. But both His Body and Soul are His Human Nature, and His Divine Nature remained unchanged. When, as God, He Rose from the dead, His human Nature took on the attributes which our own Human Nature will take on when we are also resurrected, and therefore, He no longer requires food, shelter, etc, nor can He ever die again. Christ's Human Body and Soul are God's Body and Soul, because Christ is God and is One Person. So it is still correct, in a sense to say that God died on the Cross, as long as we understand this to mean that Christ the "Theanthropos", (meaning "God-Man", that is, He Who is One Person and Who is both God and Man), died the way we all die (by having His Soul and Body seperated), yet unlike us, He also has the Divine Nature, which cannot die. |
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 07:18:21 AM by ozgeorge »
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2007, 08:32:56 AM » |
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Do you believe it proper to call Mary Mother of God (Theotokos)?
I don't get where your going with this. Yes Mary is the mother of God in the flesh. But Christ existed before all ages. 1 John 1 The Word of Life 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete. |
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 09:46:25 AM » |
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If I understand him correctly, PeterTheAleut asks you whether you are Nestorian (right, Peter)? Nestorius taught that certain human definitions - like, for example, "birth" or "death" - cannot be attributed to God; hence, it is not possible to say that God was born, or that God died, or that St. Mary is the Mother of God, etc. This teaching was eventually found heretical by the Church. --George
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 11:14:56 AM » |
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If I understand him correctly, PeterTheAleut asks you whether you are Nestorian (right, Peter)? Nestorius taught that certain human definitions - like, for example, "birth" or "death" - cannot be attributed to God; hence, it is not possible to say that God was born, or that God died, or that St. Mary is the Mother of God, etc. This teaching was eventually found heretical by the Church. --George
I am not Nestorian. Christ entered the world through Panagia. Gave birth to god in the flesh. He existed before all ages. John 1:1 [ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. God has no begining. He is being. We have a begining because we are created. Because we were created we can have an end. Creation from Null. Being is just that . No begining and no end. He became incarnate and took on flesh witch can die. He made flesh eternal by taking it on. Now,He is eternally god and man. Because he died sinless he overcame the law. The law that states, sin leads to death. Christ did this to save us from death. Christs flesh died and was raised. He didn't die because he is being. His body died. |
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2007, 11:25:45 AM » |
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Dear Demetrios, but we still do not say that "Christ's flesh entered the world through Panagia," right?
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Love never fails.
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scamandrius
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 11:27:11 AM » |
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. Christs flesh died and was raised. He didn't die because he is being. His body died. Was the divine Christ in His human flesh when the flesh died? If Christ was not in His flesh, then that supposes that there are two persons named Christ, which is Nestorianism. Forgive me because I know you began your last comment asserting that you are not Nestorian, but your claim seems to be making Nestorian and Docetic distinctions. |
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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 12:16:05 PM » |
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Was the divine Christ in His human flesh when the flesh died? If Christ was not in His flesh, then that supposes that there are two persons named Christ, which is Nestorianism. Forgive me because I know you began your last comment asserting that you are not Nestorian, but your claim seems to be making Nestorian and Docetic distinctions.
When Christ says I, where does He draw His consciousness of that I? He draws it inevitably from His relationship with the Father. This is why the Persona of Christ is only one, i.e., that of the Son. If He drew His relationship from Mary also. from the Holy Virgin, as a child from its mother, then we would have had two personae, and Nestorius’ position would have been valid : we would have had one human with two personae : one relationship from here, and another relationship from there – both of which would have given Him His identity. But, to be given two determining relationships for your identity is something that doesn’t eventually stand to reason, because only one of the two relationships will be the determining one. |
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Ebor
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 05:04:02 PM » |
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The Second Person of the Holy Trinity suffered and died in the Flesh.
Exactly so. It's in the Creed "He suffered, died and was buried". Ebor |
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2007, 07:28:51 PM » |
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But, to be given two determining relationships for your identity is something that doesn’t eventually stand to reason, because only one of the two relationships will be the determining one.  So what you are saying is that I cannot be the son of both my father and my mother.... |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 09:07:35 PM » |
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So what you are saying is that I cannot be the son of both my father and my mother.... Yes you can. But you only have one personality. |
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2007, 09:08:42 PM » |
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Yes you can. But you only have one personality.
And same goes for Christ. He is One Person Who is both the Son of God and the Son of the Virgin Mary. |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2007, 09:28:43 PM » |
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And same goes for Christ. He is One Person Who is both the Son of God and the Son of the Virgin Mary.
Christ is the virgin Marys son and Gods son. No one is doubting this. He has 2 natures. One divine and the other human. His persona is all God. It is just divine. |
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2007, 09:54:10 PM » |
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Christ is the virgin Marys son and Gods son. No one is doubting this. He has 2 natures. One divine and the other human. His persona is all God. It is just divine.
So His divine nature swallowed up His human nature to make one person? |
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2007, 10:15:57 PM » |
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So His divine nature swallowed up His human nature to make one person? ...which is essentially a variant of the heresy of Monophysitism taught by Appolinaris and anathematized by both the Third (Constantinople) and Fourth (Chalcedon) Ecumenical Councils. Or is this more properly the Monotheletism opposed by St. Maximos and anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council? |
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 10:20:19 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2007, 04:01:09 AM » |
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...which is essentially a variant of the heresy of Monophysitism taught by Appolinaris and anathematized by both the Third (Constantinople) and Fourth (Chalcedon) Ecumenical Councils. Or is this more properly the Monotheletism opposed by St. Maximos and anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council?
It is indeed (Demetrios' apparent position) Apollinarianism and, as such, a condemned heresy. The 'swallowing up' of the human nature by the Divine, however, would be Eutychianism, which is a slightly diferent heresy. James |
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 04:03:33 AM by jmbejdl »
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2007, 04:06:12 AM » |
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Dear Demetrios,
I recommend you familiarise yourself with the St. Cyril's Twelve Anathemas, which were ratified by Ephesus 431 (particularly the twelfth).
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2007, 08:08:20 AM » |
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It is indeed (Demetrios' apparent position) Apollinarianism and, as such, a condemned heresy.
The 'swallowing up' of the human nature by the Divine, however, would be Eutychianism, which is a slightly diferent heresy.
James
I didn't say that! Read what I stated. He has two natures, fully human and fully divine. You guys are quick to use that heresy word. But you don't listen. |
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2007, 08:22:46 AM » |
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I didn't say that! Read what I stated. He has two natures, fully human and fully divine. You guys are quick to use that heresy word. But you don't listen.
I know you didn't say that His human nature was swallowed up by the Divine: that's why I made two separate short paragraphs (it was how another poster interpreted your view). Your position does not appear to be Eutychian. It does, however, appear to be Apollinarian. If you think there is some difference between what you are suggesting and the views of Apollinaris, then do you think you could try to explain your view more clearly? At the moment I'd be very hard pushed to find any diference apart from what appears a very minor issue of semantics. James |
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2007, 08:36:16 AM » |
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I know you didn't say that His human nature was swallowed up by the Divine: that's why I made two separate short paragraphs (it was how another poster interpreted your view). Your position does not appear to be Eutychian. It does, however, appear to be Apollinarian. If you think there is some difference between what you are suggesting and the views of Apollinaris, then do you think you could try to explain your view more clearly? At the moment I'd be very hard pushed to find any diference apart from what appears a very minor issue of semantics.
James
Before you accuse me of being a heretic know your theology. Apollinarianism
A Christological theory, according to which Christ had a human body and a human sensitive soul, but no human rational mind, the Divine 1Logos taking the place of this last. I never stated that Christ has a human soul. |
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2007, 08:49:15 AM » |
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I never stated that Christ has a human soul. And why didn't you state this? Does Christ not have a human soul? |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2007, 08:55:09 AM » |
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And why didn't you state this? Does Christ not have a human soul?
Christ human soul was willfully given over to the divine. They both acted as one. |
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« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2007, 09:00:22 AM » |
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Christ human soul was willfully given over to the divine. They both acted as one.
"Given over?" That sounds more like the divine controlled the human than that they acted in concert. |
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2007, 09:01:48 AM » |
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Christ human soul was willfully given over to the divine. They both acted as one. So did it cease to be a human soul? |
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2007, 09:09:46 AM » |
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"Given over?" That sounds more like the divine controlled the human than that they acted in concert.
What does the word willfully mean? |
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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2007, 09:12:33 AM » |
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So did it cease to be a human soul?
I didn't say that. Your saying that. What I stated is that his persona is one. He is fully human and fully divine in nature. |
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2007, 09:24:39 AM » |
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Before you accuse me of being a heretic know your theology.
I accused you of nothing. I said your position appeared to be Apollinarian and asked you to explain. Other than semantics, I still see no difference in your idea of a fully divine 'persona' and Christ being almost human but ruled solely by the Divine. Perhaps you're just not explaining what you mean clearly? And I understand my theology perfectly well, thanks, it's yours I'm having difficulty with. I never stated that Christ has a human soul.
Well, you did and you didn't. In so many words, you did not, but you did say you beleived He had a complete human nature (though you appeared to contradict this by stating His 'persona' was only Divine). If He has a complete human nature then that includes a human soul, surely? James |
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2007, 09:39:39 AM » |
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What I stated is that his persona is one. If Christ is One Person, why then do you say that Christ cannot die? Christ couldn't die. He is immortal. His nature died. |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2007, 09:42:57 AM » |
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Well, you did and you didn't. In so many words, you did not, but you did say you beleived He had a complete human nature (though you appeared to contradict this by stating His 'persona' was only Divine). If He has a complete human nature then that includes a human soul, surely? His nature does include his soul. What your not understanding is his persona. I'll give you an example. Hypothetically speaking. If a human breeds with a dog. There offspring will be both dog and man, fully. They will have a dog and a human soul. But there personallity will be half dog and half man as well. In Christs case his personallity is just that of God. This is the Orthodox position. Is that clear enough for you? |
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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2007, 09:46:22 AM » |
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If Christ is One Person, why then do you say that Christ cannot die?
He is one person. He is fully human and fully divine. Can God die? And if he can as you say. What part of him died? |
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2007, 09:51:00 AM » |
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Can God die? Yes. And He did die 1,974 years ago on a hill outside Jerusalem. |
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2007, 10:08:04 AM » |
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Dear Demetrios, Did you happen to get a chance to read those Twelve Anathemas I referred you to earlier? Here's a link to them in case you haven't: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.ix.htmlHere's the Twelfth Anathema that I particularly wanted to draw your attention to: Whosoever shall not recognize that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, that he was crucified in the flesh, and that likewise in that same flesh he [i.e. the Word of God] tasted death and that he is become the first-begotten of the dead, for, as he is God, he is the life and it is he that giveth life: let him be anathema.[emphasis mine] |
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:14:22 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus of Antioch
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2007, 10:08:27 AM » |
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Yes. And He did die 1,974 years ago on a hill outside Jerusalem.
So your saying that there was a time that god ceased to exist? |
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras
490 BC – 420 BC
Greek Philosopher
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2007, 10:13:15 AM » |
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So your saying that there was a time that god ceased to exist? I believe he is saying that there was a time when God's human soul separated from God's human body. |
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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus of Antioch
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2007, 10:15:09 AM » |
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What part of him died? What do you mean by "part"? God has no "parts" like an automobile or a vacuum cleaner has "parts". Christ is God. God's Soul seperated from His Body. His Body was buried in a tomb, His Soul descended into Hades, yet as God, he was also in Paradise with the theif. Don't forget. Christ is not only consubstantial with the Father, He is also consubstantial with us. |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2007, 10:15:38 AM » |
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I believe he is saying that there was a time when God's human soul separated from God's human body.
He would be holding the Nestorius position than. Do you see what I mean? |
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras
490 BC – 420 BC
Greek Philosopher
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2007, 10:19:16 AM » |
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He's all yours EA.  |
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Demetrios G.
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2007, 10:21:13 AM » |
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What do you mean by "part"? God has no "parts" like an automobile or a vacuum cleaner has "parts".
Christ is God. God's Soul seperated from His Body. His Body was buried in a tomb, His Soul descended into Hades, yet as God, he was also in Paradise with the theif.
Don't forget. Christ is not only consubstantial with the Father, He is also consubstantial with us.
Your making me correct. I agree with this statement fully. Than God didn't die. Because God is divine. His flesh died. Whosoever shall not recognize that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, that he was crucified in the flesh, and that likewise in that same flesh he [i.e. the Word of God] tasted death and that he is become the first-begotten of the dead, for, as he is God, he is the life and it is he that giveth life: let him be anathema.[emphasis mine] |
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"There are two sides to every question" Protagoras
490 BC – 420 BC
Greek Philosopher
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